Podcast: The Untapped Market of Accessible Tourism

POSTED November 30, 2020

Ryan and Tim Talked About

• Designing for people with reduced mobility [3:09]

• What you can do to make places more accessible [4:54]

• How Ryan ended up starting Freewheel Weekends [8:42]

• The kind of content Freewheel Weekends makes [12:10]

• Intertwining the utility accessibility with beautiful designs [16:14]

• Activists and agitators in the disability space [20:00]

• Catering to dual and/or opposite audiences [23:52]

• The Creative’s love of ‘the riddle’, and the need for genuine curiosity [27:38]

• Ryan’s experience of COVID [29:10]

• Highlights from the Freewheel Weekend videos [38:39]

• Ways a bad experience can make a person with a disability not want to travel [40:37]

• Ryan and Tim catching up about life, boats, and favorite quotes [45:02]

Locations Mentioned

• Michigan, USA

• Seattle, Washington, USA

• Whangarei, New Zealand

• Kreuzberg, Berlin

• Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

• Egypt

• Tel Aviv

• Inside Passage (Pacific Northwest coast of the North American Fjordland)

Podcast Transcript

Tim: (00:01)

Hey Ryan.

Ryan: (00:01)

Hey there. How's It going?

Tim: (00:15)

Good. Nice to see you. Nice to talk to you.

Ryan: (00:17)

Nice to see you. Looking forward to chatting.

Tim: (00:19)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I wanted to check in with you anyways and see how life was going, but this is a great opportunity too.

Ryan: (00:26)

Hey how are you? I was listening to a couple of episodes, they're terrific man.

Tim: (00:30)

Oh, wonderful. Wonderful. Which ones did you catch? Just curious.

Ryan: (00:34)

I caught a little bit of the two girls in their studio, they were one year in, the most recent one. And I had to listen to the guy who was the kind of personality / brand development type person.

Tim: (00:53)

Yeah the YouTuber, Finn.

Ryan: (00:53)

The umm MBA... What was he?

Tim: (00:53)

Oh yeah. The Punk Rock MBA.

Ryan: (01:01)

Yeah.

Tim: (01:01)

I think he's been a hustler for a long time and he sort of carved out this niche, and it's really interesting, how he's monetizing it, very foreign to what I do, the types of things that we work on. So it was really interesting to hear about that. If you want to double check is, your mic actually plugged in?

Ryan: (01:21)

Ah here we go.

Tim: (01:21)

That actually snapped up quite a bit, much livelier.

Ryan: (01:25)

A bit better?

Tim: (01:25)

Oh yeah, we sound great.

Ryan: (01:29)

Come on. We can do this.

Tim: (01:31)

Yeah. We should travel the world via Zoom interviewing people.

Ryan: (01:35)

I'm sure it's a career path now.

Tim: (01:37)

Yeah absolutely.

Ryan: (01:37)

Zoom MC is a career path.

Tim: (01:41)

What is it?

Ryan: (01:43)

The Zoom MC.

Tim: (01:44)

The Zoom MC.

Ryan: (01:45)

I had a Zoom MC for my birthday.

Tim: (01:47)

How was it?

Ryan: (01:48)

They kind of rally everybody together, nobody's talking over one another, everybody gets a go. You have a little bit of Ryan trivia. What do you know about Ryan... It was fascinating, it was.

Tim: (02:01)

It's sort of not really a hype man, but just sort of crowd control for a Zoom party?

Ryan: (02:09)

Exactly.

Tim: (02:09)

With a little bit of hype man.. Because I would want a hype man. Definitely. (laughs)

So I have a short intro that I'm going to read.

Ryan: (02:15)

OK.

Tim: (02:15)

So Ryan... Ryan Smith lives in Melbourne, Australia where he's an award-winning designer and owner of Freewheel Weekends, a digital experience agency specializing in accessibility. Ryan says countries around the world are losing billions of dollars in tourist revenue each year from people just like himself, those with reduced mobility. And it's simply a lack of communication that could help people with reduced mobility plan a trip with confidence.

How well did I describe that?

Ryan: (02:46)

That was pretty good. That was pretty good. You can be my hype man. You can be my intro guy. Are you available?

Tim: (02:52)

I am available, actually. Well, welcome to Input Doc.

Ryan: (02:56)

Pleasure to be chatting with you.

Tim: (02:58)

Well, it's been a few years since we've chatted. So you currently own the only agency of its type in the world from what it sounds like.

Ryan: (03:09)

I think that's fair to say actually. Yeah and I noticed that because in every other kind of facet of my design career, it's been helpful to look at competitors and to say, "okay, what are these guys doing and how are they doing it?" But it's pretty difficult with Freewheel Weekends at the moment because it really is a very specialized niche. And as you said, it's about helping destinations communicate their accessibility. It's about customer experience for people with reduced mobility. And there's a lot of talk and a lot of people out there that are advising on access. So they're telling you how to make a ramp or how to make your toilet bigger which is fantastic. And this is what the world needs and certainly what tourism needs.

My role is not to do that. My role is to set the expectations of your visitors who have a mobility issue. So the last thing we want, and I am in a wheelchair, as people with reduced mobility is kind of those nasty surprises. And I can tell you some horror stories, which there is quite a few of them. And my community, they have these stories about how they booked an Airbnb and somebody said it was accessible and it's not, and sure there's room for access and consultation and all of this, but I'm a designer. I want to make beautiful things. I want to communicate. That's kind of in my DNA. So my job is about setting expectations and using accessibility as... Almost as a competitive advantage. Yeah.

Tim: (04:54)

So what are a few basic things that companies around the world could be doing to market to people with reduced mobility?

Ryan: (05:04)

Well, I think the first thing to look at would be to say, well, why do it in the first place? Which is a fair point because in some cases it's not an inexpensive exercise, it involves those things that I mentioned. It does involve maybe building a ramp or making a bigger toilet. So it can be a bit of an outlier, but it needs to be communicated. At the moment there's kind of like this deafening silence. Often, as a person with reduced mobility, if you go to a hotel booking site, you won't see the accessible rooms listed.

Now I've asked a few people why this is and we're not really getting a consensus on that. Sometimes the feedback is the hotels don't want to get this wrong. Maybe it's accessible, but it's not compliant. So there's all sorts of conflicts between what is right for the customer versus what's legally required. And also they don't think, in a lot of cases, they have a lot of rooms and therefore they would prefer if people called up and they could consult one-on-one, which is in some ways a good thing. That's what I end up doing.

Tim: (06:20)

Is it more of a question of the hotel doesn't feel like the room is perfect when it comes to accessibility and therefore let's not market it as such? Versus... So I looked around your website and I watched a bunch of your videos. And it just simply seems to be that if you can shed light on the situation of anywhere that somebody's going to go, they get a fighting chance to plan their trip and decide whether they want to go do it or not.

Ryan: (06:45)

Exactly. Yeah. And the world is not a worse place if you have people with reduced mobility, you know, getting out and about and visiting highlights and attractions around the world. We only get better as a society by doing this. Which is part of the story I tell to people who are thinking about talking about their accessibility. It could be a caravan park, it could be a hotel chain, it could be anyone. And sometimes not necessarily tourist destinations, but primarily. Nobody loses if you put a ramp in instead of a set of stairs. That opens it up, that doesn't close it down. So there is a big benefit by doing that, but also there's an economic benefit. It makes financial sense. In the US alone it's worth $17 billion. And that was three or four years ago now, the accessible travel market.

So it's certainly a lucrative space to be working in. One in four people have a disability, obviously not all of those people have mobility issues, there's varying types of disabilities, as well you know. So it just makes sense. Like, it's an inclusive approach to tourism and it makes financial sense as well. So I think we're evolving. I think if an old man like me can use the word 'woke', I think we're getting closer to 'woke'.

So, you know, I feel like it's time.

Tim: (08:13)

You know, we met five or six years ago and you were a creative director in Australia and we worked for the same company, the Oracle Marketing Cloud. I don't know if we'd both been acquired in against our will to work for the Oracle Marketing Cloud, but it was still an interesting job. And then I was in Seattle. And so, you had a massive territory, Australia and New Zealand... I'm guessing Japan also?

Ryan: (08:37)

Yeah. Yeah. We were in Japan yeah, that whole, the whole region. New Zealand... APAC. Yeah.

Tim: (08:42)

And in the end I had probably everything from Hawaii to Denver also, but from a laptop in Seattle... roughly. And you had already traveled all around the world, and I remember sitting down with you several times and just asking about some of your experiences. And I remember asking, what's it like to be in a chair in Seattle and get around and how easy is it? And you were actually like, Seattle is a breeze. I can go anywhere I want, it's not an issue. I'd be interested in hearing how you got from there to owning Freewheel Weekends. Was there a moment of outrage? Was there a moment of clarity? That said, actually, I'm going to focus on this.

Ryan: (09:22)

That's a really good question. And I think that evolution story is a bit of a trope, I have to say. I'm sorry. But it's being disenchanted with my role a little bit in the world of design and marketing and communications and just sort of deciding to step back a little bit and take some time to sort of re-establish my values, or remind myself who I was, where I wanted to be. Yeah. And so I took a year off, and in that year after being a designer and a creative director and a team leader and a design specialist, since I had graduated from university back in the nineties, to sort of step back and go, okay, well, life is is a little bit bigger than this thing. Let's just pause for a minute and see what's what's going on and see what bubbles up more than anything.

And in that time, I spent a bit of time trialing different... I suppose you would call them experiences, although that word has been sort of polluted. What I'm trying to say was I saw a whole lot of opportunities on Facebook for 'days out' to come and try - I think they call them come and try days. So I went out and I tried a wheelchair ice hockey. I went out and I tried rock climbing. I tried wheelchair sailing or parasailing. So basically there was an opportunity to experience all of these different sports and activities, things that I'd never done before. And I'm much more at home in a gallery or a museum than I am on a sports ground or doing anything sporty.

So I was outside my comfort zone and it was kind of fun. Mixed results, varied results. Some of the activities didn't really tickle me fancy, other ones I really enjoyed and took up. And it was just a really good chance to try all these different things. And I came to realize that there is so much on offer if you do have reduced mobility, that people need to know about this, and really here's a chance to sort of document my experience and maybe encourage some people to get out and try these things. Because I do know, and I did know, that the rate of anxiety and depression amongst people with reduced mobility is a lot higher than it is for the general population. So a little bit of a nudge or a little bit of a story- if you put that out there into the world and hopefully some people get out and try these things. So I started documenting that and that was the kind of the birthplace of Freewheel Weekends.

Tim: (12:10)

And the videos are really charming. Like the writing's good, V.O.'s good, there's a nice tone, the narrative cut is great.Not that you need to be told these things. But when I watch I'm like, these are great! And I want to go to these places and take a look around.

Ryan: (12:23)

I think you're being overly generous there, mate. I feel in some ways the videos- I feel like a busker. You know, I'm practicing in public, honestly. I'm kind of throwing things in, I'm experimenting, my equipment is kind of getting better and I've made an investment into that since the most recent trips. So, you know, it's like, I've got a better guitar now, I'm doing some smaller gigs, I'm no longer on the street, and actually I've kind of been discovered a little bit. So I'm about to make a big release. I don't want to kind of talk too much about it, but there's an opportunity coming up, which I'm working on, which I'm really excited about and it's going to bring a lot more prominence to those stories.

So yeah, it's been difficult, as a person… and maybe you can relate to this as a designer. You iterate, but you iterate in your own way and it's certainly not in public. Particularly with visual design, as opposed to usability. Usability practicing in public is part of the process. But with the visual design, you perfect things in your own time and you bring your own nuanced, quiet sort of working methodology to it. Whereas... if you're busking, the mistakes are out there for everyone to see and ultimately you'll look back and go, "Oh, I can barely watch this now because it's awful." Which is a great sign, right? It means you've improved. And you've got a growing skill set if you like. So yeah, it's, it's been interesting.

Tim: (14:02)

You know, I had expected your content to be about design and coding for accessibility, but then it was content that helps people plan for trips. I mean, it felt more Rick Steves than accessibility for the web.

Ryan: (14:19)

Yeah. Yeah. The idea is to only talk about the accessibility. So we went to the pyramids in Egypt, the great pyramids. And, there are hundreds of thousands of videos about the history, and about the experience and about being there and so on and so forth. That's all well and good. That's not what I'm on about. And if you want to find out that information, there are tons of places to find that out. If you want to know what the surface is like, if you want to know what it's like, if you have a mobility issue, or if you're traveling there as a wheelchair user, then my videos are for you.

Tim: (14:57)

Oh, and you are moving quickly through places critiquing the ground surface, the slope of a hill, an entry way, how you got there, were the tracks in the way, and then describing, coming up to a rough area in front of the pyramids and next stop was a camel.

Ryan: (15:19)

Yeah. Yeah...So I was kind of, pretty much, dragged up onto that camel, under duress. But probably the highlight of the trip.

Tim: (15:29)

It would be the same for me as well.

Ryan: (15:32)

Those animals are crazy. They're big. Right?

Tim: (15:35)

I can't picture myself ever standing next to a camel. Maybe when I was a little kid or something at the Portland zoo. I'm not sure.

Ryan: (15:42)

Put it on your list. It's a good thing to do. Yeah. So we took that holiday as a holiday. So my intent was to take a few videos while we were there. It was never to really turn this into something that was as advanced as it is at the moment, or at least as much energy as I'm putting into it now. So it has really evolved there. And yeah, thanks for the kind words they are, as pieces, growing.

But the idea is to make something that's beautiful. And again, this comes back to marketing and design. Trying to bring those sensibilities into these pieces. Make something that's beautiful and interesting visually, but also has an element of utility to it. So something that has a function and a nice form as it were. So they have these kind of dual purposes. And I really think that disability awareness has a lot to do with representation. There aren't a lot of advertising agencies that like to use people with disabilities. Even though, as I mentioned, one in four people in your life will have some form of disability. Yet within the media, you'd be forgiven for thinking they didn't exist at all. So there's definitely an imbalance there. And again, it's time for that to start reflecting reality a bit more.

And sometimes my mind goes to an analogy of an accessible toilet, like a bathroom with a with a roll in shower, beautiful slate, lovely fittings and fixtures and features. You would never know that it was accessible. You would never know that it was absolutely spot on perfect from a functional point of view for a person with a disability or a mobility issue. Because it was just designed really well. So as opposed to, let's say a bathroom in a hospital, for example. Which is a clinical and wide and plastic, and just really awful and bright. And I guess my point is we can really get those two elements of function and beauty to intertwine. They don't have to be separate.

Tim: (18:01)

Into the most normal thing in the world.

Ryan: (18:03)

Yeah.

Tim: (18:03)

Yeah. Just pure normalization. Oh absolutely. a lot of agencies are focused on accessibility as far as how things are coded and can a screen reader track the way tables are set up ,or is the type clear enough for somebody who doesn't see that well. So in that regard, we think a lot about it. It's the other piece of creating content that when I watch your videos, it's just so clear and simple is why the concept is great. Because these are just descriptions of areas that in turn shed light, that would allow me to know, if I was on crutches could I get there. Or I can decide ahead of time, is that the level of effort that I want to put out or I can do?

Ryan: (18:53)

Yeah, it's really interesting. And look, one way or another, it's all coming for us, right? That time in our lives when the food needs to be a little bit softer, we might not be able to walk as far as we used to, our memory and potentially our hearing is not great. Like it or not it's on its way. It's in the post. So it's sort of a way of kind of future-proofing spaces as well, if this is taken into consideration. But yeah, coding and website design probably arguably more important. Right? This is a space that everybody uses. So, being able to use a screen reader, having alt text to describe images, not having junk code in there. Yeah, it's super important and there's lots of people out there in the disability space that are doing great things in that area.

And it's really interesting, the voices out there. As you know, as a content creator, it's important to get cut through, but I think it's crucial to have a warmth, have a welcoming time. I feel like there's a lot of agitators in the disability space. Now, maybe that's not being fair. Maybe I'm spending too much time on Twitter. But some people have a lot of reasons to be angry.

Tim: (20:31)

What do you mean an agitator?

Ryan: (20:32)

Well, I think there's a fine line between an activist and an advocate. And I think there are voices out there that are unhappy about the situation, and with good reason. And they have a lot to say - a lot of people getting angry, a lot of people getting... vocally violent in some way. At one end, and somewhere in the middle there is kind of a discourse. That is generally, even in the middle ground, it's fairly heated. There is talk of Abelism, there's talk of discrimination. And don't get me wrong these are really, really important topics. And I really feel like we have a long way to go. But I think from my point of view, I don't want to contribute to that. I want to have a voice of agency and a voice of positivity.

I was talking to somebody the other day about “inspo”. You know, the hashtag inspo. Inspiration. It's kind of become a dirty word, and I want to reclaim that. I think inspiration is a beautiful thing. Inspiration is full of optimism and warmth and energy. It's not about Botox and beaches and selfies. To me, it's about looking to the future and guiding oneself, and maybe one's community and the rest of the world, in a really wonderful direction that can be inclusive. And it's really been polluted somewhat. So I want to inspire people and I want to be a positive voice. I don't want to add to that kind of downtrodden or the fighting voice out there. Which, don't get me wrong it's completely necessary and needed and has created change. Don't get me wrong. Where we are today is in a lot of ways the result of that voice. Then I think we're getting to the stage where I feel at least my contribution can be, and is naturally, a bit more hopefully optimistic.

Tim: (22:39)

Yeah. We all have to play to our own strengths, you know? I'm not in the right spot if I'm the agitator, but I can watch and think, listen and ask questions.

Ryan: (22:50)

Yeah. And I think that's key. I think all of these voices need to be heard in order to spark those thoughts and those connections.

Tim: (22:57)

Just practicing, asking these questions and talking about topics like this super helpful to me as a person. Some things I just... I build a lot of things in life and I do think about... I know there are specific widths to doors, and inside a building and an exterior door and certain slope that a ramp can be, et cetera. So I am always fascinated by that. And when I see something that I'm like, there's no way that works. But your idea is just storytelling. And that's what I love that was so powerful in the idea that I'm just going to go, and I'm going to tell stories. It's almost like how Anthony Bourdain traveled the world and ate different types of food, in that sometimes would just be irritated. And you would think, this feels very normal. I like this. I could do this.

Ryan: (23:46)

Yeah. It's time. Yeah. As I mentioned before, it feels like it- we're ready for it.

Tim: (23:52)

For your agency. Tell me about the service model that you see ahead.

Ryan: (23:57)

So this is really interesting. And I wanted to talk about this and maybe ask you some questions actually. Because this content in some ways is... And it would reduce my ability to help them. So it's, it's useful, it's practical and has real functional use. But also in some ways it's a showcase for destinations to show what they can do, with the right imagination. They can apply that to their own business space, experience, activity, whatever it might be. And so I've got these two audiences at war, and I'm trying to connect these two groups and wondering - you're almost doing a similar thing in that you're talking with designers, makers, creators, marketers, about how they do their thing. But you're also using that as a way, I assume, to talk to prospects and to showcase prospects how they can use their communication strategy to best reach their people.

Tim: (25:01)

(agrees)

Ryan: (25:01)

So how do you feel about these kind of dual audiences? And do you feel as though that model sort of fits with you? Or am I sort of a little bit off track there?

Tim: (25:09)

I think you're in the neighborhood. I'm always curious why people decide to sell what they sell, and how they got to where they're at. And that's sort of how we run the business, and that we go in an ethnographic way. We'll go in and learn somebody's business, and we'll learn everything about them, and then we'll go out and talk to customers and do surveys and do interviews. From there, come up with the stories that we think will resonate.

And so it's true that Input Doc is... There's a few reasons why Input Doc exists. What I wanted to show was our content creation strength. And I looked at the team that we had and what were the skills that we had. I had been a reporter, I knew how to interview people. I had a marketing manager who is an excellent producer and storyteller. I have a designer who is also a great writer and who can do a bit of motion. I thought collectively, I think we can pull this off. And really, I'm just trying to show behind the curtain a bit and show the curiosity that drives this agency. In turn, you can see our ethos, and by describing the ethos I think you'll get a sense of who we are.

One reason I love checking in with you is... I mean I wanted to check in with you first off because we've sat and had beers numerous times and I like to see what's going on. But you're doing something that's fascinating, and driven a stake into the ground, and I want to know about that. So if I can share stories like this, of spots where people have niched or not niched, or they're just doing something out of passion, then I want to know about it. Because everybody has a story and a methodology.

So if you have a resort, and there's some sort of ethos that they have and experience that you'll have. And it won't be for everybody, that experience won't be for everybody and nor will the grounds or the way that you would interact with it. But if I could clearly explain what it is, and what the opportunities are when you come here and leave it, then you can make that decision. And I feel like that that drives directly at your agency's mission. And I loved that because I was like, "finally, somebody figured out how to do something clear!" Because I always struggle with what industry should we chase? What types of companies? I really just want to be brought the riddle and I will solve the riddle and help them. Like, I just want the riddle!

Ryan: (27:38)

And isn't that something that's hardwired in the creative brain? Well there's a few things to me. The curiosity, like a genuine fascination with people and stories and the way the world works. It's just beautiful and it's lovely to hear these different perspectives on the world and what drives people and how they work and why they do what they do? How come that's like that? Why? Why is that like that? So that constant curiosity and questioning and storytelling. And this is your field, but it's such a powerful, powerful thing to be able to hear a story, to be able to relay a story, to have that arch and the ebb and the flow and the color, the light and shape.

Tim: (28:25)

(agrees)

Ryan: (28:25)

This is culture, but it's also communication. Then, dare I say it, we're of the same ilk and age. And when I went to design school, we didn't touch computers for 18 months. We were taught how to be communicators first and designers second. We studied film, we did photography, we did printmaking. All of this stuff to be able to communicate. And to be able to communicate, you need to be able to relay a story and to relay somebody else's story requires that genuine interest and curiosity. So, I wouldn't be anywhere else. What an incredible industry to be in. What a privilege.

Tim: (29:04)

May everyone have our problems. That's how I always feel. It's like, "I get to do this. This is great."

I'm curious about the impact of COVID on accessibility. Everybody's struggling with, how do we stay in business? How do we interact with the public? For yourself, what are you seeing?

Ryan: (29:27)

I'm going to answer that question by reversing it a little bit. At the moment I'm running Freewheel Weekends and I have projects on and I'm building out awareness campaigns and I'm doing constant work on that. But also one the other hand, I have some, I don't want to say traditional design or marketing work, but it's work that my agency undertakes as kind of the bread and butter if you like. So it's work that pays the rent, keeps the lights on, keeps me working, and keeps money coming in.

And at the same time I'm building up Freewheel Weekends. So it's a bit of a juggling act at the moment. The scales are sort of tipping towards Freewheel Weekends. And I think the entrepreneurs and the small business owners that I've spoken to that are at my stage of development, are generally doing the same thing.

So in that respect, I'm balancing these two workloads. So from existing work from the agency that's doing the branding and the communication work, that's still coming in. There's not a lot of change around that. In fact, I'm doing to work out of Michigan at the moment, some branding work there. That is an ongoing project, evolving which is great. And so that hasn't really been affected so much by COVID.

Certainly on the other hand, the Freewheel Weekends work has significantly been affected by COVID. The travel restrictions we have here in Victoria have been some of the toughest on the planet. We've gone into complete lockdown, we've had curfews, we've had a state of emergency declared. We had some real stringent restrictions come in place. We're blowing out of that, where, we're stepping down, if you like. So we're finally, just in time for spring and summer, coming out of some of those harsh restrictions.

Then in the meantime, I've got a significant project that I was supposed to be running through July, which was supposed to be wrapped up by November, which I haven't been able to do at all. Haven't been able to get outside the house for any length of time let alone work and film. So yeah, it's had a crunching effect on the tourism industry and certainly on any industry that involves being outside or amongst people. That's been devastating. Yeah.

Tim: (31:57)

We've actually gotten quite good at remote content and the use of stock. (laughs) But there's a hair and makeup person who sent me a note recently and had an interesting safety protocol of how she would work. And I thought that's interesting. You're seeing a lot of protocols. And I think that people are going to figure out - they're going to do the best they can to be as safe as they can and work in the best way they can. I don't know how to put that gracefully. I think it's a risk at this point, but if you mask up and you keep some distance and you do a lot of outdoor shoots. You're probably OK.

Ryan: (32:34)

Yeah.

Tim: (32:36)

And isn't that reassuring, when I say you're probably OK?

Ryan: (32:40)

(laughs).

Tim: (32:40)

My medical background...

Ryan: (32:41)

I was going to say - so you've done a streamlined online zoom course in epidemiology? Is that what's happened here or?

Tim: (32:51)

Right after this. Absolutely.

Ryan: (32:51)

I think you're right. So it's going to be, and it already is, about protocols and process. And part of that is about communicating those protocols and that process. In the early days, I was really fascinated by the little stickers and signs that businesses were putting up. My little area is a tiny little village, little shopfronts, and I would go along and I started taking photographs of how they were saying what the process and protocol was. So some of it was really elegant and using these lovely sort of symbols and really considered typeface. Other times it was scratched out with a Sharpie, and everything in between. So, people were getting a handle on this and I think most people and most businesses are being pretty agile with it. They're adapting, I think is the way to describe it.

Tim: (33:43)

You're going to love that I have a Google drive folder full of the exact same photos, and my team has been... we've considered going through and sort of jurying them. And looking at who's clear. I mean, it's an onboarding process at the moment. With a new product and a new service everywhere you go. And people have to figure out how they're going to interact with the public. And good signage is just brilliant. Poor signage that's confusing is... I mean, there's certain things I'm still just not going to do. I'm not going to go in a pub and sit in the middle of a pub and have a beer with a bunch of other people. But I go and get a haircut, and I've been to the dentist. I think there's still a lot of things I can do.

I saw a note on your Instagram about as we open up, let's stay accessible. And I'm curious for people with reduced mobility, what's the future forecast that you see?

Ryan: (34:38)

I'm just- I'm a little bit concerned, particularly around Melbourne at the moment, around Victoria. We're coming into summer, so there's going to be a lot of outdoor dining. We're going to have opening up the hospitality industry. So there's going to be cafes and restaurants. They are by law restricted to reduce their numbers of indoor diners. And therefore there's a big incentive at the moment, some of it is being quite creatively, thought out. Big incentive to have diners seated outdoors and have customers seated outdoors. Which as we know is a great thing to do, it makes complete sense.

Now my concern is that, am I going to be able to get down the street in my wheelchair if these diners are outside? How are we going to work that out from a spacial point of view? I've already seen some pictures on Instagram of disabled car spaces have been commandeered as eating areas. So I just want to know how that works. And I just emplore people, in councils and in businesses, to just keep that in mind. Keep accessibility in mind. So there is not a trade-off that has one group suffering for another to flourish. I think it's a solvable one, Tim. I think it can be solved. And I think it just requires that lens, that perspective.

Tim: (36:13)

Yeah. Well, your work, your mission over time should shed light on that for people. Creating things that are of interest to everybody that cover this, gets you thinking about it. It plants a seed in the back of your mind.

Ryan: (36:28)

And we're lucky we live in a first world country where we have the latitude to consider these things and they're legislated. So for the most part, back to process and protocol, this should be part of the thinking and the rationale behind the work, because quite simply it's part of the law.

Tim: (36:50)

(agrees).

Ryan: (36:50)

Well, let's just watch this space I think maybe there will be an Instagram hashtag that might start to bubble up with all these accessibility atrocities.

Tim: (37:06)

Yeah. You went through COVID the pandemic over the winter and we at least, it happened in the spring. And so this entire time we've been able to get outside, get some fresh air. I don't know how cold it gets, where you are. I think it's similar weather to here, roughly, isn't it?

Ryan: (37:26)

I think Seattle's just a little bit colder by memory. But certainly we have the seasons. Yeah.

Tim: (37:32)

Yeah. So we’re here as winter approaches, like restaurants are going have a really tough time if people are unwilling to go inside. We've gotten a lot of takeout pizza and it's been really good. And I really enjoyed how some of the bars will package up our favorite drinks and give them to you in a jar and you can bring them on home and have them. Cause I'm not a mixologist, but I know that my wife would really like a fantastic Manhattan on any given day. And I think that that's important for everybody's attitude. (laughs)

Ryan: (38:04)

Yeah. We feel like it hasn't overly affected us so much, but certainly because we had two phases, we had phase one and then we opened up for a short amount of time and then we locked back down again, quite hard. Harder than the first time around. So it's been, the first time around everyone was optimistic I guess. And there was a sense of novelty about it. Everyone was saying, "Oh, so I'm learning Spanish now. And I'm baking my own bread." And this time around, everybody's going, "just get me outta here."

Tim: (38:36)

Yeah. Wrap it up.

Ryan: (38:39)

Yeah...

Tim: (38:39)

There was one video I wanted to mention that I didn't get a chance to mention earlier you went to a place called Whangarei (New Zealand) as a great example for one of the adventures that you went on. And I'd like to hear about several of the adventures that you've been on, especially that helped inform the mission. There was a nice video of you guys going through a canopy forest. You visited a couple museums, and then your car got stuck on the beach, and you had to get towed off the beach.

Ryan: (39:10)

Yeah... Yeah

Tim: (39:11)

And that was an unexpected moment, and one of my favorite moments from your video.

Ryan: (39:16)

(laughs) And this goes back to what you were saying earlier. I think that an element of authenticity and unexpectedness within stories, and again these videos, they're basically home movies in a lot of ways. And my grandfather was big on home movies and my mom has lots of stories about him setting up the projector and running his super eight film for the family to watch, begrudgingly. And I think that's somehow made its way through the DNA into my blood cause I really enjoy it.

Ryan: (39:47)

But yeah. I really enjoyed that tour, and I feel like the more you expose parts of your your own story and bring yourself to these films and these little videos, then there's a warmness to them. There's a warmth, I suppose that's more human than sort of stepping back and being removed from it. So I think from my point of view, that's how this content is different from what I would produce commercially. There's a side that involves us as people.

Tim: (40:23)

This is so much more effective than anything we can make commercially however. And if you could make this for resorts for cities, et cetera. There's gotta be hiccups in the story. It's gotta be authentic as this is the way it's gonna be. You know?

Ryan: (40:37)

Yeah. And you're quite right. Like it or not, you need to bring a sense of adventure when you travel with a reduced mobility. Nothing is ever going to go as planned and you need a level of resilience, which I think a lot of people with disabilities have, but maybe don't get a chance to exercise. There is a temptation to kind of Netflix and Nespresso and chill at home and make excuses to not go out. And I'm not talking about Egypt or Tel Aviv or New Zealand. I'm talking about go around your block or go around your suburb. You can have one or two... No, actually you can have one bad experience and that can scar you. If you're in a wheelchair and you feel uncomfortable because you can't get somewhere or there's a step, this can be really disarming and that can have an effect on you traveling at all.

I remember I had a time. When I went to Berlin and traveled on my own in my wheelchair. And I had organized a place to stay at a beautiful apartment. It was a converted brewery in Kreuzberg, really hip cool sort of area. I was very much looking forward to it. I spent about 24 hours getting there, and I arrived and the gentleman with the keys took me up the lift to the apartment and there was a huge step to get into the apartment. It would have been close to three quarters of a foot high. And grabs the handles on the back of my wheelchair and quicked to me up onto the onto the wooden floorboards and said, "look, there's a guy coming tomorrow. He's the maintenance man. And he's going to make you a ramp for this step. So just stay here until tomorrow. I've put a couple of beers in the fridge, but just stay here and you'll be able to get out tomorrow."

And I was just dumbfounded. I was absolutely gobsmacked. Usually accessibility is about not being able to get into a place. And this was the invert. So I wasn't able to get out of the place. Heaven knows what the fire brigade or the local emergency services would have had to say about that situation. But I went from just dismayed to pure anger. I was like, how could this happen? How could this happen? You know, I supplied all of the information. I gave them everything to ensure this would not happen.

So that was a bit of a crucible moment I suppose. I didn't want this happening to other people. I managed. Okay. I did drink the beers. I did watch TV. I did work out how the washing machine worked and going through all of the drawers and explore my space. And true to his promise, I heard the banging of timber and nails at about seven o'clock in the morning. So my ramp was built. But that's not the kind of experience that anybody wants to really.

Tim: (43:46)

No... No.

Ryan: (43:46)

I'm not sure if I answered your question there.

Tim: (43:47)

Yes you absolutely answered my question. And these things probably happen all the time and they're probably fairly dispiriting. I mean, it's such an honorable mission. I keep saying things like that - but in life we are always just looking for something - when you're in marketing, you're not exactly saving whales, alright? So you're gonna need to find a way to be useful. And I always struggle with that. So the idea that you had come across this, was just very inviting and I am really happy to hear about it.

Ryan: (44:19)

Terrific mate. Thank you very much. It's been lovely chatting to you. And again, it's about getting that balance right, as you know. The form and the content, but let's try and make something useful, that is beautiful.

Tim: (44:32)

Yeah, yeah. So is there a website URL we should send people to where they can take a look?

Ryan: (44:37)

Absolutely. Please check out Freewheelweekends.com.au. Which is a showcase that you can have a little look around and see what's on offer there.

Tim: (44:49)

And then you also have content on Instagram and YouTube under FreeWheel Weekends.

Ryan: (44:55)

Freewheel Weekends. That's right.

Tim: (44:56)

Well it was really nice to check in with you.

Ryan: (44:59)

You too, Tim. An absolute pleasure.

Tim: (45:01)

Thank you so much.

Ryan: (45:02)

I meant to talk to you actually about these... these boats that I was on. Part of my little experiment was a little Hansa sailing boat. Do you know what a Hansa is?

Tim: (45:11)

How do you spell that?

Ryan: (45:13)

H-A-N-S-A - it was my first time sailing. It was a beautiful little boat, and a lot of fun. And I thought of you. I thought, "wow, Tim would be into this." I discovered later it's actually a legitimate class of boating. And there are world championships of this single person boat with, generally, one sail. Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

Tim: (45:41)

How did you feel on the boat? Did you feel insecure or energized?

Ryan: (45:45)

A combination of both. I think one sort of evolved into the other. I was lucky I was sailing- down here there's a local Lake, which is the one that the Grand Prix races around. And it's only about a meter deep probably. You have your feet touch the floor. And obviously the safety requirements that you wear a jacket and there are people keeping an eye on you. So not overly fearful of my life, although I did manage to put a lot of water in that boat.

Tim: (46:20)

Absolutely. That's what the boat is for. Fill it with water. Bail it out. Do it again. Get out there and move the boat around. Sailing is one of my all time favorite things to do. I like to load up a boat and disappear for a few days. Cruise around and figure out how to work the winds and the tide and the current. Cause at the end of the day, you've really earned a good night's sleep and it's a wonderful thing and I sleep so well on a boat. So did you document your day or your sailing adventures?

Ryan: (46:54)

I did, yes.

Tim: (46:56)

There's a guy I know who's been up the inside passage a handful of times. His name is Chris Cunningham, he works for Wooden Boat Magazine. He once told me that when you're out on a trip, you can either experience something or you can document it, but you can't go either way. You can't do it halfway. So I don't document a lot of things out on the boat because I just want to go out and experience it. I want every second of it that I can get.

Ryan: (47:26)

Yeah I can understand that.

Tim: (47:26)

But I have been through some experiences that were great stories. That were formative moments that just frightened me or I saw beautiful things or something occurred and I thought to myself, well that's a thing, I guess that can happen. Like the first time I had waves come over both sides of the boat at the same time. And I thought to myself, I wasn't scared, I just thought, "well that's a thing, I'll watch out for that in the future." It had never even occurred to me, I figured it would just come washing over one side or behind me or something.

Ryan: (47:55)

Yeah. Well I think sailing is one of those things where you just open yourself up to possibilities. You don't know what's going to happen. You don't know where the wind's gonna blow. You sort of have this or the currents are going to take you, you hand yourself to nature, and you say, "okay, let's have some fun."

Tim: (48:18)

Well... We don't quite do that! This is this great Irish phrase about the idea that when we're careful, we get drowned less. It's the idea that we go out every day and sometimes things happen, but if we're careful there is a better chance we come back. Which actually kind of aligns with FreeWheel weekends, in the idea that we're going to give some information, better chance everyone has a nice time and comes on back.

Ryan: (48:40)

Hey, there we go. I like it. One of my favorite quotes actually, has to do with a ship. A ship is safe in Harbor, but that's not what ships are made for.

Tim: (48:49)

Correct. Yeah. In the idea of owning an agency, you're going to send a lot of ships to sea. Eventually your ship will come back... Loaded.

Ryan: (48:55)

(laughs)

Tim: (48:57)

Ok Ryan, well it was nice to chat with you. Let's schedule another time and check in. If you're doing work up in Michigan, maybe that means you should do some work in Seattle.

Ryan: (49:37)

Hey, that sounds like a great invitation. I'd love to check in again with you mate. It's been a pleasure.

Tim: (49:41)

Absolutely, well have a great day.

Ryan: (49:41)

Alright. Take care. Thanks.