POSTED SEPTEMBER 17, 2020

Kenna, Kerry, and Tim Talked About

• The first year of running an agency

• Owning a business during COVID

• Financials of a business and if they are boring or scary

• How their agency got started

• The name ‘Wildforth’ and how it helps them to be brave

• The legal side to starting a business partnership

• The best project management system (they use MavenLink, we use Notion)

• What they look for when hiring a designer

• Learning from talented freelancers

• Creating long term relationships with clients

• Charging what you are worth

• Women entrepreneurs

• Creating a team of women

  
  

Podcast Transript

Tim Yeadon:

Hi everybody. This is Tim, today I'm chatting with Kenna Smith and Kerry Franz from Wildforth Creative. They're a packaging and branding design agency here in Seattle. Kenna is the co-founder and business director. And Kerry is co-founder and creative director. To me, this is interesting because I've caught them right around their one year anniversary of opening their firm. I'm curious to hear how your first year went, but before we get going, is there anything I missed out in terms of who you are and what you do that people should know?

Kenna Smith:

No, I think you've covered it. I think you covered it well.

Tim Yeadon:

So this is slightly different from the other interviews that I've done in which there are two people that I'm chatting with

Kerry Franz:

We'll try not to talk over each other.

Tim:

We'll figure it out as we go. So tell me about your first year. How do you feel? How are you? It's been a year.

Kenna:

You know, it's funny that you mention that because just the other day it almost caught us by surprise. Like I think we're coming up on our year anniversary and we should really celebrate that, but it's gone so fast and there've been so many twists and turns and ups and downs that we almost missed our own anniversary.

Kerry:

I mean, it's been every kind of emotion you can imagine. I'm completely freaked out many times, second-guessing ourselves, many times being excited, being winners, getting projects that we, that we were trying for, losing some projects. I mean, everything. It was just, just a roller coaster. And of course, with this COVID situation, that's completely different than what anyone's ever dealt with before. And I think that puts things in perspective for everybody. We really grew a lot throughout this whole process. We're just so excited. We're excited now and we feel really re-energized and ready to go.

Kenna:

We do. I feel like you know, everyone during this time has had a shift in perspective and time for introspection and during launching a business and going out on our own. And that's an interesting story that it'll be fun to share, but everything has been a little surprising. And so we've really had to just take everything in stride and not be afraid of taking risks. And I think I'm really proud of us. I feel proud. I feel excited for the future. And I think right now you've caught us at a great moment where we're feeling really good about things.

Tim:

How long ago was a really bad moment, like a week?

Kerry:

No, I would say maybe a couple of months, a couple of months of the whole quarantining, you know, I think we were both scared. We didn't know what was going to happen. Just like everybody else. We didn't know if, should we look for other jobs, you know? Are we going to find more work? Are people going to be hiring graphic designers? Do they even care about that right now?

Kenna:

Is anyone ever going to start a company again? One of our main target markets is the restaurant industry. That's been our biggest clients have been restaurants. So a lot of uncertainty there where you know, we already had discussed diversifying, but that kind of solidified that thought. And there were some definite low moments where I was thinking, Oh my gosh, we've just put all this work in and everything's kinda crashing down.

Tim:

It felt unfair?

Kenna:

I don't think at all the unfair, because, you know, I felt in some ways, a little bit lucky because we had just started, yes, there's been blood, sweat and tears, but oh my goodness, my heart just broke for some people who've been in business for 20 years and they're losing everything. So in terms of that, it felt like, gosh, we're actually some of the lucky ones because we don't have inventory. We don't have staff, you know, we have contractors, but we don't have other people's lives at stake. So I felt a little bit of relief for actually the point in time that we were at, we were going to be okay, no matter what. Yeah.

Kerry:

Plus I think everybody is going through the same things.  I think also it gave us each time to spend looking at our lives in different ways, Kenna spent time with her son that she wouldn't have had the chance to do before. And I spent time doing things around the house and with my puppy, which is not the same as a son, but it was still really enjoyable. So, you know, I think, I think that was, you kind of have to look at the good in the bad.

Tim:

I'd love to hear how you went from an employee to a business owner.

Kenna:

Yeah, that's a good one. A lot of entrepreneurial stories have an interesting beginning and it's the same as ours just being that Kerry and I met working at an agency together and I was a studio manager and she was a creative director. And it's funny because, Tim, when I looked up your agency, we worked in the same building. So I thought you looked familiar, but which building was this in the Northwest Work Lofts? Oh, currently right now we don't work there now, but that's where our original agency was for about a year.

Tim:

Interesting, interesting. I looked at your address and you're down at First and Cherry. That's a fantastic building. When I started off as a copywriter, I worked with an agency called Egg that was up on the third or fourth floor. And I remember thinking this is a creative agency. This is amazing.

Kenna:

Yes. That building is gorgeous. It's the Pioneer Building. And we totally nerded out on the history behind that building. It's gorgeous. So we're in the Novel Co-working space down there, but yeah, the agency, we actually started downtown at that agency right near the Pike Place Market and we ended up moving to Lower Queen Anne. And then so we worked together there for about three years and that agency was a packaging and branding agency and at a certain point, they decided that they needed to focus on packaging. And Kerry and I had been running the studio with multiple designers and lots of projects and they came to us and said, you know, we're going to close. And if you'd like to take your portfolio and the clients you're welcome to it.

Kerry:

The company started as a packaging company, yes. Kind of what their roots were and they wanted to expand to branding and design and then they just decided to go back to their roots. So yeah, exactly.

Kenna:

And the base of the company was in Houston, so this was sort of a little offshoot up here. And we got to do a lot of great work together and that's where we kind of discovered our partnership and our ability to run a team and our ability to strategize. And I think during that time, we were kind of autonomous for a lot of it, especially the last year or two. So we had started to discover who we wanted to be. There wasn't a lot of oversight. So we started to change the direction of the company to our vision. I would have to say that kind of birthed it during those times of thinking, what would really work? What would be really great? What clients do we enjoy working with? So in August, I believe it was August, Kerry, correct me if I'm wrong, but they told us about wanting to close the branding studio and asking us this question. And it's really funny because I think it was, you know, we had maybe at one point said, what if we did something on our own? I think it was like a month before we could tell if something felt a little off.

Kerry:

We were also a little frustrated too because it wasn't our company. And there were lots of things about it we wanted to drive that we couldn't change.

Kenna:

There was nothing we could do about it. And we had coffee one time and we just said, Oh, Kerry said, you know, would we ever think we could ever do anything? I said, gosh, I don't know. I mean, it sounds great, but it also sounds hard. And what would, how would we do that? But let's just be, I'll never forget this at the end of the coffee, we said, well, let's just be open to opportunities that we just agreed. There was an opportunity let's just be open. Cause we didn't know how to move forward and really the timing wasn't right. And so it was not maybe a month further when we sat in our boardroom and the owner of the company said I think we're going to close this. I'm really sorry. You guys have been running this, would you like to move on? Would you like to do something on your own? And because we'd had that conversation and we sort of looked at each other and said, yeah,

Kerry:

not without some questioning and you know, thinking about it. But I think we both knew that our first reaction was, yes.

Tim:

So it's almost like you got to run a beta company on somebody else's dime for a little while and figure out a model that worked and you were comfortable with.

Kerry:

I was just going to say that too, we were really lucky because we had a little bit of a test run. We didn't have to worry too much about the financials at that point, obviously. So we were just able to kind of figure out the rest of it, how we wanted to work with clients, how we went into managing a team, you know, how we wanted our process to go with clients. So, and then we didn't have to get into that, you know, boring financial business stuff quite yet. So that really did give us like a little bit of a trial run.

Tim:

One year later, does it remain boring financial stuff?

Kerry:

Well, it's scary financial stuff now.

Kenna:

(laughs) it's turned to that.

Kerry:

I'm obviously the creative person, not the numbers person. So I don't know if it'll ever be exciting to me.

Kenna:

We like it when we get paid.

Tim:

Yeah. It's the bow on top.

Kerry:

It is. Yeah. When it's, when it's your money, it definitely is a little bit more exciting.

Tim:

Tell me about your agency's name, Wildforth. As branders, tell me about the name, and tell me about your branding.

Kerry:

Well, so Wildforth was actually a name we came up with for another client.

Kenna:

Scandalous.

Kerry:

So we came up with it, it was kind of a wild card. It was at the end. We had four names for this client. I felt like we needed something else. Something kind of Pacific Northwest that was kind of like feeling active.

Kenna:

That was, this was a restaurant actually.

Kerry:

Yes. So Aereloom is the name they came up with, the name they selected. Yes. So are they selected? Yes. So we had Wildforth as the last one and we liked it, but we kind of knew they wouldn't pick it, but we just wanted, sometimes you just don't know what people are going for. And sometimes it's nice to also have one that can be thrown out.

Kenna:

One that you know, they're probably not going to like, cause you have four others, they will. And it helps them make decisions.

Kerry:

Right. So after the presentation, you know, we would kind of chuckle about the name, Wildforth. We thought it was funny. You know, one of our employees would say, "Welcome to Wildforth." And it was, it was just kind of this inside joke that we thought that the name was kind of funny. We thought it was cool too, but we thought it was kind of funny. And so even though we have this autonomy at the agency we were working for, there was still this wish that we could have more of a voice. And most of the company was in Houston and we were kind of by ourselves in Seattle.

Kenna:

Sometimes doing really big things, really important things. And that felt out of our comfort zone. And like maybe we didn't have strong leadership and so Wildforth became a mantra, between us like Wildforth, you got this, you know, one of our employees with doing a pitch in New York to a very well known retailer, huge. She was, you know, she's brilliant, but she was terrified. And I remember she sent us the picture from the lobby and said Wildforth And we were like, yes, you got this.

Kerry:

So we kind of started saying like, that's like our secret name for our group. So when finally we decided to open our own agency, we just kind of looked at each other and we're like, well, it's Wildforth. Right. That's the name.

Kenna:

That's totally the name.

Kerry:

Then what really kind of sealed the deal and what helped me design the branding for it and just gave me inspiration was Kenna said, you know, it's kind of like a secret society. I mean an inclusive secret society. So, you know, Wildforth forever, like that's kind of, we have past designers, we've worked with some that we still talk to that maybe they've worked together or they didn't, but it's this group of women that we have kind of, you know, included in this Wildforth forever secret society. But now it's extended to our clients. You know, anyone that we kind of have some kind of relationship with, or kind of connection with, we feel like they're kind of part of Wildforth.

Kenna:

And you know, it has that kind of go after it. You know, this stuff is hard. It's scary. Sometimes you're doing things even as the interview, I was thinking, man, I need the Wildforth right now because I've never done a podcast interview before. And you know, I just thought, okay, just go for it. It's Wildforth.

Tim:

I like it. That makes a lot of sense. You need this sort of personal mantra that just drives you ahead. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Kenna:

And I think it really came into play in our origin story. We worked there from August. We found out on August 1st, we had two weeks to decide if we were taking this business on, we had like two weeks to finish up a ton of client work and it was contingent on us being able to take our stuff. And on, you know, it was September, what day was it? Kerry? I don't know. It kind of blends together, but it was basically a month and a half or something. And our first day we met at a coffee shop and it was like, Oh, okay. What are we? Welcome to Wildforth. What do we do now?

Tim:

Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Sometimes we'll joke that “Mr. Golden sends his regards” and that can mean many different things. You're going to want to decide this now because you're not going to want to deal with Mr. Goldman. It's not going to turn out well. I don't want to have to bring it up, bring him in here to chat with you about this.

Kerry:

So the other part too is not taking yourself too seriously. Yeah.

Tim:

I was leery of putting my name on the wall and I wanted something that a team could decide what it meant or a team could fill with. Meaning.

Kenna:

Yeah. I was curious about that.

Tim:

Yeah. Clyde Golden. I have a dog named Clyde and he'd come back from the Downtown Dog Lounge has his tag said “golden” and he became “Clyde Golden” and I needed a name and I didn't want to put my name on the door. And I thought Clyde Golden looked lovely in type. And it was a name that I could say clearly. And I wasn't sure that people were going to suffer on behalf of Yeadon, but maybe they would, maybe they would together come up with a mission and a drive and you know, for Clyde Golden, we could do that. I want something that wasn't just me that was bigger or potentially bigger. And that's one reason behind it and you, you're going to start a business and you need a name and somebody needs to make a decision. And I'm the only guy sitting in the room and at a certain point there weren't a ton of other choices. I've named other lots of other things. But this one wasn't, it wasn't profoundly difficult to name it. It was just like,

Kenna:

Yeah, sometimes you can't overthink it.

Tim:

No. And it felt right. And it made me chuckle a little bit.

Kerry:

I think that's the ticket. You have got to find something that kinda makes you chuckle.

Tim:

So are you guys 50/50 partners or did you split it differently? And who's in charge?

Kenna:

So we have a 50/50 partnership and that was always, there was really no question around that. And we had some really good advice from other small business owners about how to go about starting a company. We asked a lot of questions to others. There's another marketing agency that's owned by two women, so we grabbed a beer and said, what did you guys do first? What's the most important thing? And one of them was just kind of setting up the partnership, the contract between the two of us. And so, but really it was always just 50/50.

Tim:

Could you tell me a little bit about the process of setting up the partnership and did you get an attorney or did you use something that you found on the internet or did, did the people that you chatted with share a contract with you that you versioned?

Kenna:

They shared their attorney with us, which was a really wonderful referral. And they were great to work with and they basically set up our client contract, our vendor contract, and then the contract between the two of us. And it was a really nice process. She was really wonderful to work with and she kind of created something or they're pretty standard, but you know, they're customized to what we'd like. And it was pretty simple, but probably not having a referral would have been more challenging.

Kerry:

Yeah. We wouldn't make sure to set it up right, right away. Because even though we love each other, now you never know what can happen down the road. We just wanted to be careful. Yeah. But, and as far as who is in charge, what's really awesome. Cause I've worked at lots of agencies before where, you know, there's two creative partners and you kind of step on each other's toes. Sometimes I've seen it happen many times. What's great about Kenna and I is that we're both very collaborative and we won't do anything if the other person isn't excited about it or agrees with it, but I'm definitely more you know, final say with creative things. And she really drives all the business strategy decisions and the operations as well. Like, you know, she really wanted to find the perfect project management system. So, you know, she worked at it and she said, this is the one I think is the best. And that's what we went for. We don't step on each other's toes cause we kind of wear our own hats in a way,

Tim:

Which is the perfect project management system? 

Kenna:

Well, I discovered there is not one, but I found a pretty good one. It took a lot of research and it was so funny, I got to this medium article, it was an account manager. She said she was really just, I thought at the end of this, she has created the perfect one. And at the end of the article, she said, there is no perfect one. And what was important to me as being in account management and project management for most of my career, it was understanding that the financials needed to connect to the project. They really needed to tie. And actually there's not that many that do a great job of that. So we ended up with MavenLink, which connects to QuickBooks. It connects the profitability and the time management and the time tracking and the project management all together in one system and I'm still learning it. But I think it has a really awesome potential to be able to work really well and it's an online-based. So when we have contract workers, they log in and everything is in a centralized place for them to access, which was really important to both of us.

Tim:

That's really interesting. Yeah. Having a good relationship with contractors and onboarding them quickly and having them understand how to work within the system. That's something I think about, you know, I have a few pieces that I, you know, they get an email address, they get a login to Notion. We use Google small business. I have the Clyde Drive. So they get access to the Clyde Drive. But the idea of time tracking and mapping that directly to a project burn a scope is a missing link on my side. And I ended up doing that in a Google sheet on a monthly basis. Yeah.

Kenna:

It's so time-consuming, you know, when I was managing a team of five designers and we had something that tracked time, we had something that tracked the project, timeline financials were in a whole different place. And I felt like, you know, I never could, if I was owning a company, I could never, it would take you hours and hours to really understand what was happening in your company. And that was something that is really important to me. And I think it is vital to our success and it can't be hard. You know, it needs to be something that I can understand on a quick basis really, and be able to run those reports. And I was always frustrated by that in the past,

Tim:

Are you primarily hiring designers or copywriters developers, researchers, UX designers?

Kerry:

Mostly designers. We actually have a developer team that we work with in Portland. So we haven't really looked for anyone else. And then copywriters, we, actually enjoy doing the copywriting. But we, a lot of times the clients will find their own copywriter, but we do look for copywriters.

Kenna:

I think finding good copywriters is one of the hardest things, we've tried and really once we're into a brand it's almost just better if we do it. And I hesitate to say because it's something that's a little scary. Copywriting is really hard, but writing is in my background, Kerry is a fantastic writer. And so it's something that we probably will offer a little bit more, but... Hey, if there are any copywriters out there, hit us up.

Tim:

Some of the best writers I've ever worked with have design backgrounds. And you're always looking for somebody who has a respect for the copy side of the house. And it's not just, you're going to fill a bucket with some content. When you hire contractors on average, what skill sets are you hiring?

Kerry:

Well, I think I think they need to be, I think personality is important. I think that's, you know, to be able to talk to this person and feel like you have a connection with them obviously they have to be talented. They have to have, I think, some confidence they have to take direction well. I think also doing a lot of exploration is so important too, and not just, you know, we have worked with a lot of people that are just like, Oh, here's the final design and that's it. This is your only option kind of thing. And, you know, that's just, we were really open to people that are humble. Don't have egos. That's also really, really important cause we don't, we try not to have egos and there's just no room for that at all. Nobody could get any work done. It's not very you know, productive. So I think collaboration is really important. We also like that they have a really good vision and kind of voice and they can direct us because we're still learning. We want to be able to learn from them as well.

Kenna:

I think something else that's really, really important as someone that holds themselves to high standards and you can kind of, you know, we hired quite a few people at our last agency and now going through you know, meeting with people, seeing their resumes, it's really that they themselves hold themselves to very high standards. And I think that's important.

Tim:

So I have a, I have a background as a copywriter. I started off as a newspaper reporter who wanted to pay his rent on time. So I became a copywriter and I really enjoyed it. It's super fun. And then over time, I got a chance to manage people and become a creative director. And so for me, the part I needed to get better at was art direction and understanding the correct terminology. So I can be precise and the things that, you know, feedback that I want to give. A comment that you made of you learn quite a bit from your contractors. And I found early on, I hired a lot of contractors who had so much experience and in turn, I just felt like I went to school. Like I was hiring people. Clients were paying my contractors for me to learn from the contractors. And I still feel that way. The last year, year and a half had been building a team and the team often has less experience. And you're looking for people who are bright and smart and optimistic and they're game and they're flexible and we all share a vision and we grow from there. I still learn a lot from them, but the contractors are the ones that I'll bring someone in as a motion designer. And I'm like, Oh, we can sell this.

Kenna:

Yeah. There are some really talented people.

Kerry:

There are definitely things for my age that I did not learn in school, that they are teaching, the kids these days, you know? So yeah, like motion graphics and animation and just coding and all that. I mean, it's something that, you know, we kind of had to learn later on, not that I've even learned to do motion graphics, but that's, what's so great about hiring young people that know these things.

Tim:

For me, I had a background, a bit as a scriptwriter and I could at least sketch out a storyboard of what I was looking for. This is what I was envisioning happening in the story. And then, and then, you know, go, let's take a look.

Kenna:

It's funny that you were a reporter. I was a journalism major. That was my degree. And I think it's a love of storytelling that kind of can lead you in this direction. There's a lot of overlap. I'm sure you've discovered as well.

Tim:

I found that the skill set of going out and asking questions has been extremely useful in getting to know clients and figuring out how to, you know how to ingrain myself into their business and learn everything.

Kenna:

Yeah, absolutely. Yep.

Tim:

My experience with branding was it takes a lot of effort to land a client. We would do branding or we would do some naming and then at the end, the client would go away. And I would think, that was a lot of work to win the heart of this client. I did this gig and it looks lovely and they have this lovely system. Is this something that you still struggle with? The acquisition cost and how long you have a client.

Kenna:

Well, I think there's a couple of things we actually are not focusing as much on packaging, so it is one of our focuses, but our primary focus is building brand identities and really the brand strategy. That piece is our primary, but we have found a lot of success in, once we have created the brand, in creating long term relationships and extending that out. I think it's something we'd like to do more of, even in packaging because we kind of have a lot of roots in that. That's what our last agency did. We have a little bit more understanding than some, on how to execute branding on packaging and a little bit of the nitty-gritty of the packaging knowledge. That can be so tough. It can get complicated. And so that knowledge definitely gives us a step up when it comes to manufacturing and production and the print quality and all of that. But I think something people keep coming back to us. “Hey, could you do our website? Oh, we have packaging now. Oh, wait, we need marketing collateral.” So some of the clients we've had we've worked with for years at this point and that's what we'd like to continue to do. And there are some things that we don't do as well. And we'd love to hand those off to partnerships that we've built, you know, trusted people that, that is there. Like for example, social media strategy planning, that is just not our expertise. And so we found some partners that that is, and we'd love to hand it off, but still, you know, be in there as a consultant or come in and make sure that the brand is staying consistent and looking really good as time goes on. I'm sure. Kerry, you have something to add to that.

Kerry:

Yeah. I mean, I do think that trying to get those projects after we do the brand identity, sometimes we're successful and sometimes we're not. I think it is always a challenge to figure out how to continue that relationship. And as Kenna said, we have had some that a lot of times they come back later on cause they realize a lot of times, you know, they'll pay for the identity, it's amazing. They love it. And they think, okay, well we'll just spend a little less and get, you know, a small freelancer to do packaging design and do the website and find their own developer. That's not as expensive as ours, but I think the majority of the time, they're not as happy with it in the end. And so, you know, trying to not push people in that direction, but also kind of encourage them that this is what we can do for you. And it's really worth it in the end. it's an investment.

Kenna:

I think that's something we actually have recently discussed because we used to want to say, Hey, we made this brand for you. You can do whatever you want with it, work with whoever you want. Cause it felt you know, like this isn't ours, it's yours do with it when you will now. Fly away a little bird. Lately, there's been a few examples of times where not only has a client been disappointed in the execution, but we've also been disappointed. You know, we go back and look and think, Oh, maybe we should have put ourselves out there a little bit more so that the brand becomes what we all had envisioned from the start. And so that was a recent conversation in saying, let's try and win a little bit more of their business since we've already built their trust. And we have such a deep understanding of the branding.

Tim:

Do you sell work based on time and material or do you sell flat rate or do you do like a monthly burn? how do you price what you do and do you think it works or do you think the client responds to it?

Kenna:

So we do both is the answer and it really kind of depends on the project and the client. I think lately it's been more project-based, you know, a lot of people are coming to us and they want a brand identity, a brand strategy, a brand style guide and they want their website. And that seems to be almost like a repeatable package that's happening. But you know, I think it really depends on the scale of the business. So we do think that when we're pricing that out, how much work is this going to be? You know, there's always the house analogy that comes to mind, you know, are you building a little bungalow or are you building a mansion? And so while the same pieces and some of the same work and process is involved the size and scale and maybe the type of materials and how custom it is could be different or will definitely be different. And so price will kind of depend on that on how much time and effort is really going to go into some of these projects.

Kerry:

Yeah. And also it depends on the client and what they're able to spend at this point. we'll work with people if we really want to work with them. We'll try to figure out how to make it happen. You meet people and you're like, I really want to work on this project And I think these people are awesome I just really connect with them and we really want to make their business just be so successful. So we'll kind of adapt to whatever they need.

Kenna:

We do kind of have like a stop point though, I think in order to be successful, you have to, and we certainly are not the least expensive agency. And we won't be because I think in order to be profitable and get the type of clients and the type of work that you want, that doesn't really work out for anybody. So for the smaller projects, we'll do time and materials hourly rate and kind of bid that out. so just things like brochure updates, or, you know, whatever may come, that'll just be time materials.

Tim:

I spend a lot of time thinking about, you're just exactly what you described, you know, who am I working with and what, what their likely threshold is of being able to pay. When I sometimes feel like I can cut to the chase early and simply say a threshold to do a website like this on average is $85,000. Do you feel like over the course of the next nine or 10 months, you would be in a situation to do something like this and being a little franker and upfront versus, or in your mind, you know, where the punchline is going to go. And part of it is just practicing saying the words, $85,000 in the mirror with a straight face until you too have come to accept what it is, you know, is true. And that alone quoting an hourly rate to a client is for me, a matter of staring in a mirror until I get it right. And I'm like, that is actually what it costs me and I need to be honest.

Kenna:

It's true. I think being honest with yourself, I mean, sometimes I think we talk our own self down before that we've even presented something to the client. And I think that's been a real learning curve of understanding, what does this take? What are we really putting in this? And what's the value that it will bring to the client. And I think we've had enough work at this point. And I think when you're starting out, this can be really challenging, but to have enough kind of time and be able to look back and see how you affected a business owner, how you affected their company and what value is that to them and how much work did we put into that and what's it going to do for their business? And so I think over time, you sort of build the confidence that like, this is worth it. And if they don't want to pay that, then they don't believe in this type of work or it's just not possible. Maybe it will be later. So just, okay, we're going for it. And if they say, no, that is okay,

Tim:

They're already not working with you.

Kenna:

Right. Yeah. That's a really good point.

Tim:

What did you lose?

Kerry:

And the challenge too, is a lot of people don't realize how much work goes into a logo, for instance, we don't just create logos, but the whole branding, the whole identity, they're thinking of it just as a logo and they don't realize what goes into it. And so, you know, then you have websites like 99 design where, you know, that whole platform is, you don't have that in any other industry. It's really pretty crazy how these designers are throwing work out. Basically, maybe getting paid, maybe not. And people are getting logos for what is it? 20 bucks, a thousand dollars. So, you know, a lot. So when they see that, that they are like, you know, you charge this much for, for a logo is what they're thinking. Even though we explained to them what it entails. I think that's sometimes the challenge. Some people get it some people don't

Tim:

a signal of a client that I want to work with versus I don't, as someone who I have to explain the value of marketing to if they don't already know that marketing works. And there's a reason why people spend a lot of money on marketing because it's a good investment, then I don't want to be the one to persuade them.

Kerry:

Right. Exactly.

Tim:

That's a Conversational signal of like, what's the value here.

Kenna:

I think marketing kind of has a leg up on branding a little bit at this point in the business world for some just because marketing has been around a little bit longer and branding as its own kind of industry and agency, I think is a little behind that. And it gets mixed up with marketing and public relations and especially new entrepreneurs, they sort of have everything jumbled into one mix. So we do spend time, because we work with a lot of people who are at the start of their business and even people who've been in business for a long time. There's a little bit of education that has to go into it. And I think we're okay with that.

Tim:

So at one year, you're here, it's the two of you. Is the team going to grow over time, or what, what is the goal? What does the vision look like to you?

Kerry:

I definitely think we'll grow not too quickly and I don't think we ever want to be very big. We want to stay boutique. I think we just want to have a small team of people that love, design love, strategy, love, you know, making other people's visions come to life that have fun working together and enjoy being together and are really passionate about what they do.

Tim:

One thing that Kenna mentioned was being a role model to women, entrepreneurs or women designers or women marketers, is that part of a mission or a goal for you?

Kenna:

I mean, I think that's a big part of our goal. You know, we work with a lot of women who, even as entrepreneurs, haven't had a conversation with someone about their vision and really help them get to the end result and really listen. I've had some stories from other business owners in the past, just, you know, when I was a manager when I was working with other people, they didn't feel heard, they felt steamrolled. They felt like someone just presented this brand to me, I don't know what it is, it made me cry, just being thoughtful, respectful, a good listener, treating people as you would want to be treated. Just those kinds of simple things that get lost in business. We say the business of branding is personal because it is, this is people's passion projects. It's helping them build a life that they want. It's so much more than just a paycheck. And I feel like it is for us and it is for a lot of people. So just being that type of role model to younger women coming up in business and in design and then also in our relationships with our clients and how we treat them and how we help them move things forward. But I think for us right now, it is just actually being who we are in the world and making that you know, connection with others.

Kerry:

Yeah. I definitely think as we evolve doing pro bono work for a cause that we are really passionate about and excited about, I definitely see that in the future. It's just one of those things we haven't gotten to yet, but I think it's important.

Kenna:

Yeah. And we'd like to form some relationships with some of the universities or you know, just to create a pipeline of employees, but also just be there for them when they launch. It was really awesome for us to see some of the designers that we work with, go, and work at other great big agencies and are doing wonderful things. And that just makes us feel really good.

Tim:

Okay. So we're in an interesting economy right now, and there may be some people who have been laid off or have just found themselves with more options in life. And you're a year in, do you have any advice for people thinking about starting an agency and you know, what, what to expect or reasons why they may not, and they might just go get a job?

Kenna:

I think all of that's very personal. I've heard starting a business in a bad economy is good. That's hearsay. but I think it's a really personal decision. Whether or not you just get a job. I think you need a certain personality type to take this on. It's been a stretch for us and growing to kind of be comfortable with the uncomfortable, you know, it's not a comfortable thing, starting a business. And so if that's something that's really important to you, I might not recommend it.

Kerry:

Yeah. I also think it's kind of like anything else in life, any kind of big life choice that you make getting married, having kids. I feel like you have this desire for something and it scares you, but if that desire doesn't go away, then you should go for it. And I think starting a business is kind of like that, you know, I have some friends that I worked with and it's comfortable to have a job and be employed somewhere. But if you have that feeling like, man, I just, I need to do it. I think now's the time. Yeah. And you just, can't be scared and don't worry about what anybody else says and just go for it.

Kenna:

Yeah. I think that's really important is you know, going with your gut, that's what we tell our clients. And that's what we tell ourselves is at the end of the day, it's nice to hear what people have to say. Sometimes it can kind of be useful, but you've got to trust your gut and be firm in that.

Kerry:

Yeah. I also think asking questions, tons of questions, you know, don't be afraid to look stupid about things, ask any question and ask as many people as you can get their opinion about things because there are a million different ways to do things. Then you kind of figure out what your right path is.

Kenna:

The thing about starting an agency is there have been lots of agencies before us. And so it's not like we're inventing a new thing that someone's never seen. So asking for help, asking for advice is a good thing.

Tim:

Is there any last thing that you wanted to mention that you haven't had a chance to talk about? I'd love to hear.

Kerry:

Well, I think one of the things we've talked a little bit about, but is our real focus on women entrepreneurs and that not only creating a team of women and designers and, and standing out as a business that has a woman creative director, there's actually not that many. And how important that is to us and how important it is to be supporting these businesses, branding them. We always say making them legit, you know, not thrown together. And that was something that we really wanted to put out in the world. And that's a little bit scary to say, this is where we want to live and, and what we want to do, but, but it really is. And so I think it's important to say that and it's not that we won't work with other businesses, obviously we have a lot of guy clients and we love working with them too, But a lot of times they're actually creating a brand that's targeted to women. And so we felt like this unique voice and perspective from a strategy perspective and a design perspective is really important and a big part of our mission. We do a lot of work with ‘why statements’ and why you exist as a business and what you know, why are you doing this? And why should people care? And our ‘why statement’ is because women change the world.

Tim:

Well, congratulations on one year. And it was lovely to chat with you.

Kenna:

Thank you so much

Kerry:

So nice to meet you.

Tim:

Yeah, we'll have to, at another anniversary, maybe two or three, check back in and see how things are going. You know, see where the agency is at.

Kerry:

I think our hair will be much greater. We could have some gray hair at that point.

Kenna:

Not in two years Kerry. How about like 15!

Tim:

I have profoundly less hair than I did four years ago. And it is, and it is seriously chocked up to agency ownership.

Kenna:

Yeah. It's tough, it's a tough gig, but someone has to do it right.

Tim:

Somebody has to go bald for the people. Okay, you guys, it's a pleasure to meet you have a great day.

Kerry:

Thank you.

About Clyde Golden

We’re an experienced Seattle-based team of strategists, storytellers, filmmakers, designers, and musicians. Together, we’re a marketing strategy and content creation agency in Seattle.